Super User website applications policy

Question

I recently asked this question on Super User, and a big discussion arose on appropriate questions. The issue came down to the new verbiage in the FAQ:

I had figured that the websites line was just about social networking software (which a case could be made for closing the question I asked), but Diago said that they were shutting down ALL website application questions. So I can ask a question about Microsoft Office or OpenOffice.org, but I can't ask a question about Google Apps. He confirmed this, and after I pointed out that 34 pages (x50) of hits when you did a Super User search on "google", he said that they would all be closed as they came up on the home page. Notice that with other website type questions, you're probably looking at 20% of Super User.

In Coding Horror, Jeff Atwood has blogged about Web Applications and has stated what we all know, that they are pervasive and replacing normal software. His most relevant quote is

for an increasingly large percentage of users, the desktop application is already dead.

So why is the new Super User moderator policy to marginalize these questions, and is it a good decision?

I think it will only hurt them in the long run, as they fight a software trend that is only growing more and more. I've asked a few website related questions on Super User, and have always been pleased with the quick answers that have come forth. I think website application questions are very relevant and should be allowed. The only difference between web applications and desktop applications is what's running the interface. They're both software that has to be used, and therefore the same type of questions come up for both.

We don't need to be fighting the future in our quest to clean up Super User.

EDIT: I just had to ask a question about the Opera Mini browser, but I wasn't sure whether questions about browsers would be allowed, so I had to ask it on another site.

EDIT2: Podcast #76 has a conversation between Joel Spolsky and Jeff Atwood about this topic, from appox. 25:00 to 30:50.

EDIT3: I've just received the email from Jeff that states that the moderators are doing what he wants. He can edit this post if he'd like to post more information on his point of view.

End of Bounty EDIT: I don't completely agree with any of these answers, but I will pick Diago's since I feel it is the most complete, though I do think the percentage of web-application questions is higher than 1%. Time will tell on all these things.

Answer 1

I definitely think that questions about web apps are off-topic on Super User.

But I agree with you that those web apps are getting more and more important.

Maybe it's time to extend the trilogy with yet another Q&A site specifically aimed at web apps? That way those off-topic question which are already on Super User could be migrated in stead of just closed (and maybe deleted in the future). I think this would really be the best option as a lot of those questions and answers have actual value!

OTOH, if Jeff and Joel don't want to consider that, there's nobody stopping you (or anybody else) to start your own wep app centric Q&A site using the StackExchange platform.

I just checked the List of StackExchange Sites, and there doesn't seem to be something like that yet. I think there is potential there.

Answer 2

Unfortunately with this debate having gone on for some time now, and I am not sure what the answer should be I do feel I need to make a few points clear. Super User has grown with regards to visits at a considerable rate, and even on the number of questions it is 500 questions away from overtaking Server Fault and is heading towards reaching Stack Overflow proportions most likely within the next year. The site is popular due to it's wide audience, and is starting to stand on it's own. This was all achieved in just over 6 months of the site existing.

To have a look at the actual numbers

[Total Questions] 28,373
[Total Unanswered] 3,845
[Total Closed] 2,280

Drilling down further and looking at the [WordPress], [GMail], [PS3], [iPhone], [Google] and [X-Box] tags as a sample:

[Total WordPress] 125
[Total GMail] 284
[Total PS3] 27
[Total X-Box] 3
[Total iPhone] 477
[Total Google] 206
[Total Closed] 350+

_{Totals as at the time of posting this answer}

_{Please Note I only looked at the tags on Super User since this is what we use to analyse the data with, not Google search results. Without adding every tag, if I do a look at anything starting with Google, you could possibly add another 200 questions to the count above, therefore the figure is still less then 1% of all Super User questions.}

Arguably I am not looking at every tag but these are the major once. Therefore we are splitting hairs over less then 1% of the questions asked on Super User, for which there is now a policy to disallow them. Therefore it is safe to assume that at least 90% of the questions asked on SuperUser does not involve a Web Application or Website.

The debate about what should be allowed has come up many times, and to be fair before I became a moderator on Super User, I provided answers to the web applications and console questions. It is extremely rare that I would close a question without one of three things happening:

• The question is moderator flagged by someone with less then 3K reputation
• The question is flagged to be closed and on the moderator tools close page
• Jeff explicitly closes similar questions or makes a change to the policy in this regard.

The types of questions being flagged are reviewed and discussed, either on Meta (90% of the time) or otherwise between the moderators themselves. Not every flagged question is closed however this is rare, but I can say right now there is 3 questions on the close list I won't close because I don't agree that they should be. A feature I would love is for moderators to be able to clear close flags completely, but that's a different topic.

The gaming, web applications and iPhone question policy was put in place because the majority of moderator flags and close votes we have received in the past was for these questions. The problem on Meta is that the responses are slightly off since only around 1% of the registered Super Users actually participate or are even aware of Meta.

At the end of the day, based on the figures, it doesn't make difference to the Super Users on the site whether we allow them or not. However for the moderators that have to keep the site clean, eliminating these reduces the amount of flags and questions we have to deal with regularly.

Lastly as pointed out by Jeff in a response to Lance via e-mail.

The moderators are following the policies set out by him, and doing what he wants

We are the bad guys because our names end up on the closed questions, but we do our best to follow the guidelines and policies set out by management. In this case management is Jeff and the developer team.

Please keep in mind that the diamond moderators are elected by you, however we do not receive any compensation to do this, and participate freely. We sacrifice our time, and at times our own reputation whoring, to do this. We are human and make mistakes, and I have often re-opened questions when proven wrong. I have also got no objection to the community re-opening questions closed by a diamond moderator, since it is the best indication of what they want, unless the question directly violates the policy of the site.

Answer 3

This is a very shortsighted policy, and it's not one that's going to age well. Web apps are computer software. The only difference between Excel and Google Spreadsheets is the delivery mechanism. With online versions of Office apps starting to appear, are you now going to try to find out whether the user is referring to the online version or the shrink-wrapped version? The apps themselves are quite different now, but it's just a matter of time until they're identical.

Answer 4

I think that if mods on Super User are going to be extremely aggressive about this, then Super User is not going to be the first place I go to ask any reasonable question.

I believe that if someone is willing to answer your question, it should be legit. If they want to move it to another website, that's OK too, as long as you get an answer and don't have to deal with legal positivism.

Answer 5

The "closed as not computer related" text should really be changed to reference the appropriate section of the policy. I logged in to SU for the first time today and saw a couple things closed with that message, and my first thought was "WTF?".

Having read this discussion, I can understand why they were closed, but that message has got to be infuriating for people. WordPress/Gmail/whatever are not computer-related? Good luck using them without one.

Answer 6

The blurring line between web applications and desktop applications presents a major problem here.

As the policy currently stands, a question of "how do I set my signature in Microsoft Outlook" will be acceptable, but "how do I set my signature in Gmail" would not be. Both involve a simple "click here, then here, then type, then save" answer. There's zero functional difference between them.

Things get even more muddled if I'm running Gmail in an app that wraps Gmail as a desktop application with Google Gears offline support enabled.

How do we handle this? What happens when Microsoft Office gets an on-the-web version? What happens if Facebook gets a desktop client, or if someone asks about Facebook chat support in a Jabber client?

Answer 7

This new policy is completely and totally ridiculous. Where do we draw a line at where a webapp starts and ends?

• Is asking a question about MySQL not allowed, because it's most often used by web servers?
• If a piece of hardware or software allows you to access it via a webpage (such as uTorrent, or any home router) is that not allowed because it serves a webpage?
• If a piece of software runs on a webserver, but is not accessed via a browser, such as a stat tracker, is that allowed?
• If an application runs via command line and outputs html log files, and then you must open those log files in your browser to see the information, is that not allowed? How is that ANY different?

The line gets blurrier and blurrier as I think of more examples.

Answer 8

I think most people want a term to describe:

• Single user applications, including configuration of (Excel, PowerPoint).
• Multi-user applications where the administration or configuration is not in question (Google Apps, Facebook)

This seems perfectly fine, because it matches quite well a mental grouping of kids, grandmas, and Software enthusiasts, and businessmen. These are all subsets of Users that we have no reason to assume any technical knowledge of.

I find this to be the least awkward way to distinguish what I would like Super User to be. However, I can see splitting off entertainment software out of necessity.

I'd take it one step further and say stuff that comes in a box (hardware) probably doesn't belong on the site all. Price-hunting on discount net-books seems totally uninteresting and out of place.

Answer 9

Another problem is that if a video game console is even mentioned it will get closed, that is: not if it is related to video gaming, but instead appears to be... For example, How do I set up Windows 7 to stream media to my PS3?

In this question, he could be streaming to a regular media server as opposed to a PS3, it isn't here nor there. But it gets closed by over zealous mods anyway, yet I could have benefited from further answers/follow-up. Did anyone else except that mod want to close the question? It is a pretty valid question.

Answer 10

This isn't "new," per se -- it's been the case for a long time. (Later on I'll go dig up the earliest reference I've seen to web sites not being covered by SU.)

I see your argument. After all, I made essentially the same argument about the iPad. Splitting hairs over the definition of a computer, or of software, is going to cause friction, especially as everything converges in this modern era of computing.

However, from the team's perspective, it's pretty apparent that they're trying to gear SU towards "locally-run" software and "traditional form-factor" (laptop or keyboard/monitor/case factor) computers. Based on how they're trying to steer the community, they're in the right to shut that down -- as they are when they close iPad questions.

Answer 11

Sometimes I feel like the moderators have not read their own verbiage in a while, particular pertaining to Super User being a site for "computer enthusiasts and power users." To take it one step further, I think there are logical fallacies within the first answer of the SU FAQ.

As I consider myself a computer enthusiast, I have many questions about the internet, which is a network exclusively made for, and accessible by, computers. In fact I cannot think of many other devices capable of accessing the internet without also having the capability of computing and interpreting the data to output media.

Under these considerations, I think I am making a logical connection between web applications run exclusively on the internet, and client-side applications run offline. Both are well within the scope of "computer software" and, I can only assume, are used on a daily basis by "computer enthusiasts."

To address what Super User "is not about" (i.e. game consoles, social websites, mobile devices, and other electronic devices), I would certainly say the moderators have contradicted themselves by arbitrarily eliminating these topics from discussion. As soon as game consoles run off the brainpower of tiny hamsters, or Twitter devolves to telegraph (or ceases to exist - I can only hope), I believe all of these items are within the defined scope of "computer hardware" and "computer software" as stated.

Perhaps before moderating potentially valuable questions from enthusiasts and super users, a certain amount of moderation should be enforced upon those who dictate the moderation. The question at hand is not why particular posts are closed, but under which part are they closed according to the FAQ stipulations - the top half of the answer, or the bottom half of the same answer?

Answer 12

Web applications with offline modes (like those enabled by Google Gears) should be allowed to be asked on Super User because they have code that executes from your PC and perform the same functions as other offline programs.

Also, RESTful applications that interact with websites should be allowed. I'd be annoyed if anyone closed a question related to TweetDeck, but not surprised if someone closed a question related to changing your picture on Twitter.

Answer 13

I think this is a more general policy across the Stack Overflow family of sites (even if it's not official on any except Super User). I had a community wiki question closed on Stack Overflow, because it dealt specifically with a website UI and asked for examples that web developers ought to learn from (in the vein of the book Beautiful Code). Yet the same question specifically for application UI is perfectly acceptable. (And probably necessary, since the general thread on this has a lot of websites.)

Right now web applications are in that "awkward phase" - they're not accepted as "real programs" by a lot of smart people, programmers and non-programmers alike. Most people now in the field are probably too young to remember it, but personal computers went through the same phase. ("Real programs" ran on mainframes and, later, minicomputers - someone who specialized in microcomputer programming was... well, no one was sure what, but certainly not a programmer.) I don't think the policy will change until this does.

Answer 14

I not only agree that banning questions on Web Apps or Web Services is short sighted but the description for smartphones is lacking as well. My android phones are mini-computers that have an OS, a Keyboard, a Screen, memory and storage. Questions about software running on those should be valid whether they are connecting to a PC or not.

These two branches of exclusion really are blocking of a large field of view of related technical questions that could be filled by superuser.